he was rejected by mainstream. anybody knows why?

"Sever scientific lags"

I find the inherent love of and uncritical admiration of all things to do with Science and Technology by many people alittle worrying.

Science is a ideology, it has problems, it is related to power, finance and it is used as a tool by the powerful to shape the world. Technology is a product of science and also has problems. Just because the iPhone is better in some respects to older phone models...it does not mean that all technology is good, or neutral and just a tool to be used by man.

Is an ideology used by powerful groups and individuals to make their version of reality the Truth.

Scientists are supposed to be neutral, 'objective' and detached researchers who study and observe simply because they love the Truth. In fact they are human beings with their own set of assumptions, distortions, ideologies, needs, desires, politics who observe the world from their own position and who then impose their view on others, to earn their bread, or to please their sponsor.

You should watch the Speilberg film, "Back to the Future". On one level this film shows how going along a particular path in research, theory, methodology, science and technology prevents other forms from emerging and we become locked along a path. In the film when Marty changes one simple even in the past, he risks the dissappearence of himself.

Science and what it means differs in time and place. If you went back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad and you mentioned the word science to them, it would mean nothing to them. After the European Enlightenment the word science came to mean a methodology and approach which rejects metaphysics and only deals with facts and observerable and measurable phenomena. And this is supposed to be free from any bias...'improvements' in technological developments apparently proves that science works and is good. To me this is just a ideology propounded by people with a strong faith in science and its other built-in meta-theories (ideological and unproveable beliefs).

http://carmenisacat.blogspot.com/

Science is part of the creation.

It is hard to know exactly why he was rejected but it isn't as if he came forth with a new doctrine or something like that. He discovered the existence of something within the Quran.

There was a controversy because he declared that he was a type of messenger or wali...a helper, warner, whatever you want to call that but he never declared that he was a prophet like the Bab did.
And yes, the code did foster a belief in some people that "warped" their practice of Islam but that is an issue of individual's interpreting the "reason"for the existence of something as phenomenal as the underlying code in the Quran.

What a few of you have missed is the fact that the Sura states clearly that the curious sign (Great Miracle) is not to prove to MUSLIMS but to prove to NON MUSLIMS.

And beyond that...if people in the modern age cannot see this obvious (also a word in the Sura) and Great Miracle..then what will they believe?

Nothing of course. Those who refuse to see this clearly divine miracle are averse to Allah no matter what you tell them.

But leftie, et.al. this miracle is meant for nonmuslims. Not for actual submitting muslims who already have their faith secured for them. For muslims like "us" the Sura is meant only to strengthen our faith.

His murder was carried out by a team of assassins said to be from Al Qaeda. That story I read several years ago however cannot be found on the internet. All I can tell you from my memory of it is that the names of the assassins were not Arab.

One thing though...the calculations of the experts in this area show that two verses were added to the Quran. Yes..that the Quran was added to at some point in time and perhaps that might be why some MUSLIMS might want him dead..because what he found proved that someone did something to the sacred text.

Those two verses are in Sura 9, 128 and 129 and have to do with giving Mohamed the power of "mercy" which we know he does not possess...that is an attribute belonging only to God/Allah i.e. the power to forgive sins.

It becomes clear if you also read [74:31]
(from Maggie's link http://www.submission.org/suras/sura74.html)
We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

Self interpretation

From Maggie
"THE CLOAKED or THE HIDDEN, Sura 74 in which the Prime Number 19 is mentioned as a "curious" parable which up until the early 1970s was not really understood by anyone. The man who uncovered this immense proof was assassinated in Tucson, Arizona in his mosque. He was one very dangerous person as you might imagine."

So the man self interpreted the meaning and didn't learn it from an unbroken chain of teachers back to the Prophet SAW/pbuh.

I haven't learned this verse yet but, according to my own self interpretation (which thus means it has no authority at all) this could be the actual translation

[74:18] For he reflected (on the Quran), then decided.

[74:19] Miserable is what he decided (the Quran's words are true).

[74:20] Miserable indeed is what he decided.

[74:21] He looked (at the Quran).

[74:22] He frowned and whined.

[74:23] Then he turned away arrogantly (from the Quran).

[74:24] He said, "This (Quran) is but clever magic (as in David Copperfield magic)!

[74:25] "This (Quran) is human made."

=========

Lets just stop proselytizing for a religion (including evolution) on this site. There are other sites for that, although I still think it is better to do it face to face.

well as far as I can tell mainstream muslims had a problem at hand with Rashad Khalifa's claim that he was the messenger of covenant mentioned in Qur'an 3:81 and that last
two verses of sura AT-Tawba 9:128-129 have been injected by certain scribes.

9:128-Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.
9:129-But if they turn away, Say: "Allah sufficeth me: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!"

These two verses have been found only with one person Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary as Imam Bukhari narrates:
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ...' (9.128-129)

Rashad Khalifa allegedly believed that original Qur'an written by the Prophet Muhammad himself was tampered with 19 years after his departure and these two verses have been injected by scribes who allegedly added these two verses to honor the Prophet Muhammad. Most of Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad was illiterate and that other's wrote his recitals of the Qur'an and thus another confronting point that separates Rashad Khalifa from the mainstream. This is what Rashad Khalifa allegedly cited as his proof:

AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 [see Insert 1].
http://www.submission.org/images/hadith.GIF

Translation: `Ali was asked: "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something
has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes,
except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored." [ Insert 1 ]

Due to such claims by late Rashad Khalifa this happened:

In February 19, 1989 a group of 38 scholars met in Saudi Arabia to discuss the issue and position of of Salman Rushdi. They issued a fatwa (a religious decree) that made the headline news in Muslim countries, as well as the Free world Media. The fatwa was very interesting: "both Rashad Khalifa and Salman Rushdi are apostate."

Allah knows best but silence about these controversial issues is not helpful at all. If mainstream has irrefutable proof that such thing never happened they should come out loud and clear and if they have doubts about it there is no need to go about anathematizing anyone who doubts it as well. As I said Allah knows best about this problem and He will definitely expose the truth about this matter and I recommend patience. The times this issue is pertaining to were very clouded and there is certain taboo about it. Scholars in general refuse to discuss it for fear of falling into criticizing companions of the Prophet due to Ahadith that warn of its grave consequences. I can understand their uneasiness about discussing the topic and the best they could do they said that Imam Ali was right in his position and his opponents made mistake in ijtihad (judicial analogy). They referred the settlement of the whole matter to God and abstained from vilifying Imam Ali's opponents. Having in mind complexity of the problem I think they did the right thing for God is the only Judge to all of us.

"Let there be Light!"

Quoting you:

"we have Mohammad (Salam And Salawat of Allah upon him and his great family) urging Moslems to acquire more and more science by all means even a travel to China."

No he actually said knowledge (in Arabic ilm). Many people say the hadith you quote is weak or even fabricated. And ilm/Knowledge does not correspond to Science.

"In the Glorious Quran we have hundreds of sentences about the benfits of science and the high value of scientists.
Quran is the science."

No the Quran is nothing to do with modern science and its destructive drive to destroy the Earth, Oceans and humans who live on it.

"Not only in Quran but also in Bible Allah has many times spoke about the science."

No they do not.

"Even Adam and Eve (Salam of Allah upon them) were privileged over all the other creatures by being given Science by Allah."

No they were not given science, modern science has no relation to anything before, Decartes and Francis Bacon elaborated on and defined modern science. You are talking from a position of ignorance.

"Jesus Christ (Salam of Allah upon him and his virgin Mother) was the best scientist."

No he was not, next you will be telling us he had a white labotrary coat and made great Scientific experiments and observations. None of these things were done by him.

"All the things of religion talks about is Science and acting according to science."

No it is not.

"Haven't you noticed how a bunch of heathen arabs after their succumb to Allah were manged to conquer and rule for centuries half of the civilized world? Only by science."

Nothing to do with science.

Mohammad (Salam and Salawat of Allah upon him and his family) says
"Otlob al Elm men al Mahd ila Lahad"
"Gain science from your cradle until your tomb"

"I admit that there are always people trying to exchnage pseudo-science with science. But it doesn't reduce the value of science."

Modern Science was born in atheistic Europe, a Europe which was rejecting God and religion. It affirms that man can work out how things work by observation and experiment and profit from this. Only matter exists, everything that is not matter is non existent.

"In regard to metaphysics:
Why do you think that metaphysics is at odds with science?
If our sensors are not capable of sensing the events after death we must put an end to scientific thinking about our death?"

Metaphisics is not about just death. Modern science rejects anything that it cannot see, and reduces existence to only that which can be apprehended by the sense perceptions of man. The Angels are denied, all phenomena is supposed to work by-itself (Naturalism/Materialism).

"Someday by telescopes ,someday by neutrino telescopes,someday by mathematics and someday by revelations to Messengers."

Most scientists will reject religion, revelation as non scientific fairy tales.

"In my view, your definition of science is only about a very small method used by scientist
Of course this very little method has yielded for humans these current gigantic civilizations. But new "scientific" methods are coming,just look at the Baysian Statistics to believe that being able to Redo Some Experience is not the only method available.
Science is everywhere and everything
Thank you for your reading of my long comment"

I think you are not aware of the problems of science and you have a naive understanding of what it is, and its acheivements. You even believe that Civilization = science and technology. Civilization to me = good human relations, social justice, good organization etc. it does not matter that they use horses for transport instead of cars...if they have good character they are civilized.

http://carmenisacat.blogspot.com/

I take it for granted that most people have some scientific knowledge beyond a basic high school/secondary educational level.

For those who have more than that, the Quran offers not a limited number of understandings of things like light waves in deep oceans, genetics (the Quran mentions the creation of three types of human genotype: male, female and 'both' i.e. xxy, xyy, xxyyy genotypical individuals)....not only does the Quran offer us at our stage of discovery immense references to what we already know but imagine the things it is referring to that we DON'T KNOW YET!

The problem with human beings imho is that they always seem to think that they are all done. Better than anything that ever lived, more knowledgable, etc.

Just from some of the "anti scientific" posts above I gather that the same thing that scientists do to religion, superstitious muslims/religionists do to science.

Religion is the sister of science guys. In fact, without the creation itsef there wouldn't be anything to scientifically pontificate about hahaha.

It is a two way street.

This numerical pattern in the Quran is real though and I HIGHLY suspect that Israel is using it to develop technologies...some of them used against muslims like nanotech bombs...microscopic knives like dust which literally slice people in half.

It is related that David (SA) was also given some insider information regarding the nature of the unseen but not so that he could use it. He was given it as a test by the angels Harut and Marut.

Like I said...the numerical miracle is part of the ever expanding "plot" of Allah against those who are averse to Allah.

And as for the constant nagging regarding "prosletysing"....then Saif....don't read my blog thank you very much. Peace on you anyways.

And the rest, peace.

You Wrote:
"Just from some of the "anti scientific" posts above I gather that the same thing that scientists do to religion, superstitious muslims/religionists do to science."

I am glad you used " " around anti-scientific. Because that is not what I am. I am merely trying to point out the limits of human knowledge and understanding and I am trying to deflate the very high claims being made by some ideologically biased people who seem to think Science and Scientism is faultless and can find and define all truth.

Some so called religious people, are bigoted, self-righteous, narrow minded, hypocritical etc., like some humanists, scientists, Zionists, etc. but a true Muslim who has Knowledge of Existence and the Quran is beyond such narrow categorizations.

As for submitters and Rachid Khalifah...the Copt who claimed to be a Prophet and who reformed Islam...to me he is just a liar, nothing you say will make me think otherwise and you are welcome to follow him if that is what you want, please do not insult our intelligence if you think your childish mis-representations and disinformation on this board is going to convince us.

And as for the constant nagging regarding "prosletysing"....then Saif....don't read my blog thank you very much. Peace on you anyways.

And the rest, peace.

maggieporter | Wed, 2007-07-04 21:09
and by the way, Mohammed came along 575 years after Jesus Christ, plaguerized some of His sayings and started the ( false) religion of islam....period! Peace to you and your loved ones.

http://carmenisacat.blogspot.com/

I truly have no idea what you are talking about.

I think you and I are not only not on the same playing field but we are most likely not even in the same sport.

peace on you whatever the case