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Terrorising Muslims in the Name of Countering Terrorism

By Yoginder Sikand

In the face of a seemingly unending wave of fake encounters, killings and arrests of innocent #ffff99">Muslims across the country falsely accused by the police of being 'terrorists', a three-day Peoples' Tribunal was recently held in Hyderabad on 'Atrocities Committed Against Minorities in the Name of Fighting Terrorism'.

Organised by three noted Delhi-based human rights organisations, ANHAD, Peace and the Human Rights Law Network, it brought together eminent journalists, retired judges and social activists who listened to the testimonies of over
#ffff99">40 Muslims from different parts of India who have been victimised or whose relatives have been brutally terrorised by the police and the state machinery in the name of combating 'terrorism'.

Introducing the purpose of the Public Tribunal, Apoorvanand, a Delhi-based social activist, critiqued the so-called 'mainstream' media for its obsession with what it terms as 'Muslim' or 'Islamic' terrorism

#ffff99">while maintaining a studied silence on the terrorism unleashed on a far more menacing scale by the state and by right-wing Hindu organisations, in which, over the years, tens of thousands of people, mostly Muslims, have lost their lives, with their culprits having faced no punishment whatsoever.
He remarked that now, in addition to #ffff99">working-class Muslims who earlier bore the brunt of police brutalities, Muslim professionals, such as doctors, computer scientists and engineers, are being arbitrarily arrested by the police, tortured in jails and branded as 'terrorists' for crimes for which no confirmed evidence of their involvement has been produced.
'Earlier, poor Muslims were arrested, #ffff99">branded as ignorant lumpen elements by the police and, hence, as terrorists. Now, they are catching well-educated Muslims and accusing them of being terrorists, claiming that they have access to sophisticated technology,' he remarked. Literally hundreds of Muslims have, in recent years, been picked up by the police or even killed on such fake charges, he added.
#ffff99">The mass media simply parrots the police line, thus playing a major role in fanning anti-Muslim hatred. At the same time, he went on, the police, the so-called 'mainstream' media and the state machinery turn a completely blind eye to the terror being openly engaged in by Hindutva outfits.

On a similar note, Colin Gonsalves, Supreme Court advocate and convenor of the Human Rights Law Network, noted what he called the
#ccffcc">'fear psychosis' that had spread throughout the Muslim community in the face of police and state terror.
Several Muslim victims from Gujarat, Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh who wanted to testify at the Public Tribunal were #ccffcc">intimidated by the police not to do so, being threatened with further trouble if they refused to comply with their orders, he said. He bitterly castigated the state for refusing to ban Hindu terror outfits and for not taking any action against the killers of literally thousands of Sikhs, Muslims and Christians.
He pointed out that #ccffcc">the police was rounding up large numbers of innocent Muslims and, through brutal torture, was forcing them to confess to terror crimes which they did not commit. For their part, the courts, too, were dragging their feet on a whole host of cases involving massacres and unwarranted arrests of religious minorities across the country.

Suresh Khairnar, an intrepid human rights activist from Nagpur,

#ccffcc">rebutted the police's claim about the alleged role of Muslim militants in the attack on the RSS headquarters in Nagpur and in several other such bomb blasts in recent years. He claimed that the Nagpur attack was a stage-managed incident, and that the
#ccffcc">three Muslim men who were killed by the police, whom the police claimed were behind the attack, were actually done to death in a fake encounter.
Khairnar also raised the case of the Nanded blasts, in which some Bajrang Dal activists who were making bombs in order to attack mosques were killed. #ccffcc">Scores of Hindutva activists were also involved in the conspiracy, but, Khairnar said, no action was taken against them. Nor did the media give this, as well as other proven cases of Hindutva groups being engaged in fomenting terror, much coverage.

'This is the last battle for survival for India's Muslims. I cannot even dare imagine how dreadful must be the insecurity of ordinary Muslims in this country,' Khairnar opined, adding that the state, rapidly hurtling towards full-blown fascism, was hell-bent on quashing all dissent.

#ccffcc">'While Muslims demanding justice are branded as Islamic terrorists, those of us, like myself, who have Hindu names, are being targeted as Naxalites,' he said.
No political party was seriously taking up the cause of the Muslims who are being thus unfairly targeted, he pointed out, and in large parts of the country pro-Hindutva lawyers have made it impossible for anyone to take up their cases. The situation was grim not just in BJP-ruled states but also in states ruled by the Congress and the CPI(M), he added, where the attitude of the police towards Muslims, Dalits and Adivasis was, with a few exceptions, equally hostile.
'They are fiercely anti-Muslim despite not having gone to RSS shakhas and despite being paid by a so-called secular state. They are doing the work of the Bajrang Dal', he remarked.

Zakia Jowher of Action Aid , who has been closely involved in the struggle for justice for Muslims in Gujarat,

#ffcc99">spoke about the continued harassment of Muslims in the state, of police forcing innocent Muslims through torture to confess to bomb blasts crimes that they did not commit, even going to the extent of threatening to kill them in fake encounters if they refused.
Yet, in the face of all this, the state remains a mute spectator. Even sections of the judiciary are complicit in this gross denial of justice and there is little or no transparency in the investigations. ' We are paying the price for being Muslims.
This is a total subversion of the Indian Constitution. Gujarat was an exception', but now, she added, 'it is rapidly becoming the norm', with witch-hunts against Muslims in the name of countering terrorism spreading to the rest of the country. 'There's no difference between the Congress and the BJP on this score,' she commented.

Ram Puniyani, noted Mumbai-based human rights activist, argued that there now appear to be 'two separate judicial systems in this country—a separate one for oppressed communities like Dalits and Muslims and another for the elites. There seems to be no scope for justice for oppressed groups.

Investigations into charges and atrocities against them are being dictated by oppression, deceit and lies.' This sentiment was echoed by the well-known scholar-activist Asghar Ali Engineer, who remarked that 'the governmental apparatus has become monstrous'.
#ffcc99">He questioned the police's claims about the banned Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) as being behind a recent chain of deadly bomb blasts in the country, on the basis of which hundreds of hapless Muslims have been arrested and tortured in prisons.
'SIMI has been banned for several years now, so how can it suddenly become so powerful? SIMI activists have been carefully watched, so how come these attacks have happened?' , he asked. #ffcc99">Numerous other blasts attributed to Muslims by the police, the state authorities and the media, he said, were probably engineered by other elements.
#ccffff">The media, however, only accepts the#ccffff"> police version of the story, and no action is ever taken against highly communal Hindu newspapers, which spread vitriol against Muslims, he pointed out.

Former Vice-Chancellor of Lucknow University Roop Rekha called these chains of dastardly events as 'signs of fascism, an attack not just on Muslims but also on democracy, indicating a total collapse of the Constitutional system'.

She mentioned how Hindu fascist organisations regularly organise training camps for instructing their volunteers in the use of arms and also carry weapons in processions in the streets but are not stopped by the state machinery. 'Yet, if Muslims just raise some religious slogan like Allahu Akbar they can be branded as terrorists ', she said. 'I thought the judiciary was the safest institution for protecting the rights of minorities but this is not so.
Several unfair judgments have been delivered and if we protest against them we run the risk of being accused of contempt of court', she decried.

After listening to the heart-wrenching narratives of hapless Muslim victims of police and state terror who had assembled from various parts of India, members of the jury of the People's Tribunal announced their 'verdict'. Jury-member and noted human rights activist from Hyderabad K.G.Kannabiran accused the government of 'an assault on Muslims and subjecting them to tremendous repression'. 'Such mis-governance and such blatant denial of justice', he said, 'can only produce terrorism, not stop it.'

Likewise, Justice (Retd.) #ccffff">Sardar Ali accused powerful elements in the police and the state apparatus of seeking to 'destroy the fundamental character of the Indian Constitution' and even claimed that 'an undeclared emergency has been declared against the Muslims of the country'.
This, in turn, he remarked, 'poses a grave danger to the very concept of India.' And, voicing the same concern, Justice (Retd.) S.N.Bhargava gave a similar verdict, stating that Muslims in large parts of India were 'living in fear' and were being effectively denied their right to live with honour and dignity.


Inside the mind of the bombers

Mihir Srivastava
October 2, 2008

On the evening of Saturday, September 13, a series of bomb blasts ripped through the capital. The blasts took place in the most popular and crowded shopping centres, killing 25 and injuring 200.

Six days later, the Delhi Police conducted a raid on a flat in Zakir Nagar, an area where many students of nearby Jamia Millia Islamia stay. Two persons inside the flat were killed as was a highly decorated officer who led the raid.

One occupant, Mohammed Saif, was arrested. The police announced that one of those killed was Atif, the mastermind behind the blasts. Two members of the terror module managed to escape.

The caretaker of the Zakir Nagar flat, Abdul Rehman, was the key to three more arrests on September 21, three educated young men: Zia-ur Rehman, Saquib Nisar and Mohammed Shakeel.

The three were charged with being a major operational arm of the Indian Mujahideen and with planting bombs, not just in Delhi but in Ahmedabad and Jaipur as well, sites of earlier serial bombings.

Rehman, Nisar and Shakeel were paraded before the media and then whisked away for a police interrogation. India Today's Mihir Srivastava managed to talk to the trio exclusively. Here is his first person account.

They look like earnest young students, clean-shaven, educated, well-dressed, soft-spoken, almost the boys next door. Saquib Nisar, Zia-ur Rehman and Shakeel are all in their early 20s.

After they were picked by the police from Zakir Nagar, a common friend of the trio facilitated two meetings with them, at the Zakir Nagar police station and later during the press conference called by the South District police to announce their arrest.

These meetings resulted in a frank discussion, scary in terms of the twisted ideology as well as the hatred and desire for revenge that underlines everything they say. More alarming is the matter-of-fact way in which they describe their acts of horrific terror and widespread death and destruction.

What is more frightening is that they could be young men you meet in a local Barista café or see working on their laptops at a cyber café. Up close and personal, they turn into something malevolent, walking bombs who perform their act of mass slaughter in the name of Allah and without the slightest suggestion of remorse.

Behind their endearing looks hides an enduring sense of being wronged. This has clouded every faculty of their intellect and reduced them to willing instruments of the invisible puppeteers of terror.

Zia-ur Rehman, 24

A third year student at Jamia Millia Islamia, accused of planting bombs at Connaught Place and Ahmedabad and providing logistical support.

Zia-ur Rehman is sitting with his father, who had also been arrested for forging the rent documents of L-18, Batla House, the infamous flat where the terror module led by Atif lived. The thick chain attached to Rehman's hand is a complete contrast to his frail frame.

He is small, thin, bony, fair, not more then 5'5" tall, and wears an expression of utter disgust on his face, suspicion too, but at the same time, does not seem to care the least about his fate or the fact that he committed mass murder just a week earlier.

His sharp, wide eyes are partially open; hooded, impossible to penetrate. He wears black trousers and an oversized, light shirt that hangs below his waist. His tone is abrasive and he has an unfriendly vibe about him. Yet, when he starts speaking, cold chills run down my spine.

"You planted the bombs?" I ask. "Yes," he says, forcing his eyes open. "Your friend, Nisar, feels that he was taken for a ride by Atif in the name of Allah," I introspect as he leans forward, as if not wanting his family to hear his words.

"Whatever knowledge I have about Islam and what I understand about how things work in this world, I have no regrets about what I did," he whispers. "So, if you had not got arrested, you would have gone on to plant the bombs at Nehru Place as per the plan?" "Yes," he replies without hesitation.

His small frame becomes rigid, the nerves on his frail forearm tense. "It is a jihad, it's a war," he declares. This is followed by my next query—"Who is your enemy?" Rehman parrots without emotion, "This is jihad for Allah, only the privileged get to do it." It is only then that I ask him, "But who is your jihad for Allah against?" He tries to find words to describe his enemy.

His concept of an adversary seems amorphously lost in the deep-rooted sense of insult he feels at belonging to a certain religion. He says, hesitantly, "It is against Maharashtra for ignoring the Srikrishna Report; it is against what happened in Gujarat."

But how would killing people, say in Karol Bagh in Delhi, help target those responsible for say Maharashtra or Gujarat? The question agitates him, his temper flares. Raising his hand to stop me speaking, he says: "I have no regrets about what I did, and the way I did it. Ask them to shoot me for this," he asserts, his thin lips clamped tight.

At this point, his thin innocuous body looks ominous, dangerous, like a living bomb. "How many like you are ready to kill in the name of jihad?" "I know only Shakeel and Nisar, Atif is dead, a few more," he replies. "There will be thousands willing to join the jihad," he adds as an afterthought. And what about the Indian Mujahideen? "I know only of Atif."

Prodding further, I ask, "When you went to Ahmedabad, didn't it bother you who paid for your travel?" He responds, "I knew there was someone very generous to us, he was a lover of Allah and was supporting us in all possible ways."

"Did your parents know about it?" "Now they do," is the blunt reply. "My father is upset with me. He told me that I am not his son. He does not understand jihad for Allah, and nothing else matters to me."

Would he plant a bomb in the same market where his mother buys vegetables? He remains quiet again, turning the idea in his mind. "If Allah wants, I will do so. Meri valida ko jannat naseeb hogi (my mother will be sent to paradise)," he replies.

He looks almost as if under a spell, unthinking, unfeeling, a machine engineered to kill. All in the name of Allah. What's even more frightening is that many more like him could be out there.

Saquib Nisar, 23

A Jamia Millia Islamia graduate, now pursuing a management course from Sikkim Manipal University, accused of being part of the Ghaffar Market reconnaissance team.

Saquib Nisar is handcuffed, a policeman at his side. He is slim, fair with good looks, large, expressive eyes; his face looks tired for lack of sleep. He wears well-fitting blue jeans, a red and white bold striped shirt hangs loosely on his slim frame. He looks eager to talk despite having undergone hours of extensive police interrogation. One gets the impression that he belongs to a family of a certain level of affluence.

I ask him: "Do you know what you have done?" He remains static, head down, no movement to show he has heard the question. Then after a long pause, he looks up. "Yes," is the tentative reply. "Where did you plant the bomb?" "In CP," comes the answer. "Where in CP?"

"Regal cinema," Nisar answers, his voice growing louder and clearer. "Did you know it was a bomb and doing this would kill innocent people?" "Yes." "Why did you do it?" He looks up and says, "For Allah. It's a jihad for Allah." His eyes seem moist, but it's not remorse.

He is forthcoming about his background, a Delhiite, not from Azamgarh, he insists. He did his schooling in Delhi and has just graduated in Political Science, Economics and Islamic Studies from Jamia Millia Islamia scoring reasonably well, "three year aggregate marks of 56 per cent", he says proudly.

He had a life beyond jihad, a girl who was more than just a friend, and aspirations for everything that's usual for a guy of his age—clothes, girls and gadgets.

But, by his own admission, this lifestyle was just a cover to hide his real intent, his real passion—jihad in the name of Allah, for Allah. "I do not miss my girl, my life," he says, a little surprised how the police got to him so soon. "We lead a normal life of a student, beyond suspicion," he says, adding that he believed he would never be caught. "I have no criminal history."

Jihad was like a part-time activity that he pursued with utmost seriousness. Nisar used to meet a set of like-minded friends in college and outside to discuss the need for jihad, nature of jihad, to take revenge for atrocities and insults heaped on Muslims. "It is difficult to be a Muslim in India," Nisar says without elaboration.

He never thought, however, that he would end up being a jihadi till about four years ago when he first met Atif at his cousin Shatab's house (Atif was killed in the September 19, 2008 encounter).

Atif became friend, philosopher and guide to Shakeel, Nisar, Rehman and others in the gang. The Delhi Police calls him the mastermind of the Delhi serial blasts.

They would often hang out together. "We loved to hear Atif talk about jihad," recollects Nisar, talking of his early association with Atif. Initially, Atif would come with Shatab to meet Nisar; later he started coming on his own.

"It was Atif who told me that only a few privileged get to wage jihad for Allah," recounts Nisar. "He would talk for hours about jihad. He was passionate about it and infused the same in me."

Nisar says it took a while for him to be completely indoctrinated. Atif prescribed him a reading list of Urdu literature, mostly about the valiant fight of a jihadi against the enemies of Islam. Nisar makes a special mention of the book Maidan Pukarte Hai, about the struggle of Afghanistan's Muslims against the Soviet occupation in the 1980s.

The book had a profound impact on him. "The book says that Allah helps a true jihadi, always. And I believe it," he asserts. Nisar insists on narrating an episode from this book about an unarmed jihadi who was surrounded by Russian tanks in the middle of a desert in Afghanistan.

In a desperate bid to save his life, the jihadi threw a fistful of sand he picked up from the ground at the tanks. The sand became a powerful explosive and ripped the Russian tanks apart. "Allah does miracles to save a true jihadi, that's true," Nisar says, his gaze unblinking, believing every word of this fantastic fairy tale.

He remembers that for many months Atif was judging his will and determination and courage to be a jihadi. "For many years Atif did not tell his real intent, the real task for me. He wanted to make sure I could do it," says Nisar, "I always knew I had the fire for jihad."

The first time Atif actually defined what he meant by jihad was when he inadvertently mentioned how he placed a bomb at the Sankatmochan Temple in Varanasi a couple of years ago. Atif told Nisar in graphic detail how he placed the bomb near a tree in the temple premises where four couples were getting married.

"It gave me a jolt," says Nisar. "Atif was killing people." But then Atif showed him a larger reason for all this bloodshed. " 'Sometimes you have to adopt evil to prevent a bigger one,' he told me. 'It's not for me or you; it's for Allah.' "

Nisar got his first chance to establish his credentials to his immediate group as a true jihadi. He was part of an entourage of 12 sent to plant bombs at Ahmedabad. He did it with no fuss and great success.

"After this, we began to meet more often," said Nisar, "eager to do more jihad. I was particularly close to Atif, Zia and Shatab. Atif liked me; he was impressed by my knowledge of Delhi."

The next opportunity came on September 13. "Atif was worried about our safety that day." Nisar gives a reason for it. "He did not allow us to carry any identity proof, not even a mobile phone." That was not for your safety but his own, Nisar was told. "Did Atif use me in the name of Allah?"

Nisar thinks aloud, "He did not call me even once after the blasts; he did not insist that I attend the customary congregation at L-18 (the module's hideout) after the blasts."

By now, Nisar is restless. "What will they do with me?" he asks, meaning the police. I remind him: "Do you realise how dangerous you have become?" His eyes flood with tears and he looks up at the ceiling.

"Have you thought about your parents, what would they be going through?" He cries silently. He is perhaps the only one who is feeling the shock and realisation of what he has done. Maybe Nisar is not as hardened a jihadi as he would like to project.

Mohammed Shakeel, 26

A final year student of economics at Jamia Millia Islamia, accused of planting bombs in Ahmedabad and Delhi's Karol Bagh.

With his face covered, Shakeel is waiting to be paraded in front of the cameras at a press conference by the south Delhi police. A member of his family is with him, so are a few friends who risked meeting him. His face is covered.

"Tell me about yourself," I ask. "I've already done that many times to the cops," he says, dismissing the question. Correcting his tone, he says, almost apologetically, "Sir, ask what you want to know, I am an open book, by Allah's grace."

He goes on to tell me that he has love for life, and wants to enjoy it to fullest. But, it should be a respectable life. "If you follow things that are happening in the world, also in India, Muslims are not welcome."

There are two options, live a life full of contempt, get insulted and abused, or protest in the name of Allah. "I decided to do the latter because had it been only for me it would have not mattered, it's the name of Allah that they want to soil, and that is not acceptable."

Atif was the man behind his indoctrination as well. "I experienced in me an awakening after I committed my life to Allah. Now nothing scares me, life and death are same," says Shakeel.

He has no qualms in acknowledging that he planted a bomb in Ahmedabad. "I planted the parcel in Mani Nagar," he says. A regular at Atif's hideout, Shakeel lists the people who went with him to Ahmedabad: Nisar's cousin Shatab, Sajid and Khalid, all on the run, Zia-ur Rehman and Atif.

They were frequent visitors at Atif's house. "This association was the most passionate phase for our life, nothing mattered, there was no ego, we can do anything for Allah."

Shakeel is believed to be second-in-command after Atif, so it comes as no surprise that he accompanied Atif to Ghaffar Market to plant the bombs.

"We're all equals in the jihad for Allah, but I was associated longer with the Allah ke bande (men of God). He was happy with the way things were happening. A handful of Allah ke bande were able to paralyse the economic life of such a big country by targeting metros and nothing much could be done about it. We gave back what we were getting from them," Shakeel says.

But like Nisar, he is also puzzled at being caught so easily. "Atif used to say no one can touch us, we are for Allah," he recollects. "He is dead, we are here, no regrets, it's Allah's test of our fortitude."

The police have proof. "They have seized a bucket in which we kept barood (explosive) and plastic tape, timer watches and the bags we used," he says anxiously.

He expresses no regret for having killed innocent people. He is clearly no leader, merely a follower, a novice who is yet to come to terms with the true meaning of jihad but dangerous nonetheless.

He is one of those who have no qualms about being a terrorist. "As I told you there is nothing to hide. We are not thieves," he says. That makes him even more dangerous.

Where one of the "terrorists" would bomb his mother in an outside market because "Allah comes first" or "Jihad for Islam" is the priority....some sort of bullshit like that.

Yeah, I read the whole load of garbage. That link from your useless post. ALL of your links have been useless.  "The Indian police have caught the perpetrators, the police are investigating the matter, the police this, the police that" as you have said in past comments....blah blah blah.

And you ignore the police TERROR and intimidation tactics in Sikand's article.  I am not surprised.  Your articles offer no evidence of who the terrorists are, and your articles never have.

  My, koola, you sure have a derisive tone against Islam and Muslims. 

Indeed.  Completely ignored the article above.  If you did read it, you certainly seem to think you will change my mind about those "islamists", those "jihadi terrorists" and see things your way.

You are dreaming.  Your trashy article is the same exact  spewed out junk on our zionist TV networks in North America.  Glen Beck & Dennis Miller would love it!

So KOOL it, KOOLA.....your bigoted, narrow-minded thinking is quite obvious.


You are dreaming. Your trashy article is the same exact spewed out junk on our zionist TV networks in North America. Glen Beck & Dennis Miller would love it!

Rhiannon, I don't think any amount of evidence will ever convince you. Peace.

You have not offered any decent amount of evidence whatsoever.

You have offered bigoted, biased, news reports favoring exactly  North American media.

A young Muslim student doesn't mind bombing his mother to pieces?  Forget you, kula.

But your stuff tells me a lot about you.

And I don't think you know what the word  PEACE means, nor how it can be achieved.


A young Muslim student doesn't mind bombing his mother to pieces? Forget you, kula.

Is it that unbelievable? We are dealing with a belief system that was described by Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy in this post.

Yes, I know that in response to that you posted a comment accusing Dr Hoodbhoy of being an agent of the Ahmadis / Qadianis. A recent incident showing what treatment the Qadianis get is here. You should seriously reexamine your own belief system.

A recent incident showing what treatment the Qadianis get is here.

How is that any different to the treatment of Dalits?

I should rethink?  How about this:

pervez hoodbhoy = bernard lewis


by Shahid Alam

In the imperial war on Islam, the battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims takes many forms. There are zealous holy men whose books always follow the bombs. There is a huge propaganda machinery assuring the Muslims that the war on Islam is not against Islam. There are music and entertainment channels targeting the youth and Muslim family. #ffff99">And there are dedicated intellectuals like Bernard Lewis and their acolytes in the Muslim world like Pervez Hoodbhoy who assure their readers that the problem is with Islam; it is obscurantist, anachronistic, rigid, and impotent; and to get out of their predicament Muslims must reform Islam and replace it with secular humanism.

 The very first essay in this collection of twenty essays --- which also provides the title for the book --- dissects these arguments and shows them to be the intellectual nonsense that they represent. #ffff99">When did the Muslim decline as a world power begin? Pervez Hoodbhoy puts it in the 12th century; Bernard Lewis even earlier, in the 11th century. There's purpose behind this falsification of history: to show that Muslim societies declined because of deep flaws in their beliefs and outlooks i.e. in Islam itself. The earlier dates also help cause greater despair. If the problem has persisted for a thousand years, what hope can anyone have that it will be fixed tomorrow?


for his religion certainly is not a Muslim.

But, most definitely a concoction of the media.  But YOU, kula do not know Islam.  You do not understand anything about Islam.  Jihad is not about murdering your parents for religion.  That is what we would call the zionist invention of the "new improved jihad" for all intents and purposes to demonize Muslims to justify stealing their land, resources, and controlling, monopolizing the Middle East. don't care about that.  Your brain just stops short of the zionist bent -  Muslim boy happy to kill his mother for Islam.

Funny how Muslims are the only ones portraited as happy bombers willing to explode the living daylights out of their loved ones because "their Allah"  says so!

That is your idea of Islam, no doubt.


Is Pervez Hoodbhoy responsible for how Qadianis are treated:?

This may not be true Islam, but such ideologies are a fact of life in South Asia.

Rhiannon, India has very cordial relations with most Muslim countries. One of India's favorite heroes is the scientist and former President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam. But you do not have a full understanding of the political realities in that part of the world.

How is that any different to the treatment of Dalits?

Sullivan, that is not the topic of this thread.

You will be entitled to ask that question when a Qadiani woman is the Chief Mister of Pakistan's Punjab province, like Ms. Mayavati is the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh in India. any time, and I don't need your permission to do so. Got that? Good.

The analysis of Bernard Lewis's What Went Wrong? The Clash Between Islam and Modernity is contained in Shahid Alam's essay, "Bernard Lewis: Scholarship or Sophistry." It exposes the Zionist propagandist who tries to disguise himself as an objective scholar. Bernard Lewis never locates the problem of Islamicate backwardness in its global setting, where backwardness has been endemic to all societies in the Periphery --- the non-western world --- including the Indian, Chinese, Islamicate, African and Latin American. His book is strewn with contradictions. He himself refers to ten accounts of Muslims travelers to Europe between 1665 and 1840, yet blames the Ottomans for being uncurious about the rising European power. He talks about failure of industrialization in the Muslim world but never mentions Europe's success in curbing it with military power.

- Shahid Alam

about pervez hoodbhoy, he seems to have a derisive tone against Islam:

*Hoodbhoy fails to realize that the appearance of modern science was a gradual process that developed in large part during the Muslim era. It was not an instantaneous epiphany during the Western Renaissance. The question which titles his penultimate chapter: "Why Didn't the Scientific Revolution Happen in Islam?" is thus inappropriate. What is commonly called the "scientific revolution" was not so much a revolution in science as the revolutionary impact which modern science had on Western Europe.

*Hoodbhoy confuses the battle of Muslim orthodoxy against Hellenistic philosophy with a battle against science. Because of this confusion, Hoodbhoy contradicts himself by asserting on page 114 that opposition to Ibn Rushd manifested itself in a prohibition "against the study of logic and science by order of the Caliph" and then in the very next sentence says: "All of [Ibn Rushd's] books, except for some strictly scientific ones were ordered burnt" [emphasis added]. Opponents of science would burn scientific books first, not spare them!;col1

That's interesting.  The more I read of hoodbhoy, the more I dislike him.  Is it true that he supports mililtary rule?  There is a rumor going around.

kula, your links are a waste of time.  I won't read your stuff.  fantatics are not religious they just think they are or they are just PAID to be fanatics for an agenda, they do not follow Islam, they do not know God or follow the right path. 

And your links are not evidence of anything contrary to what I have been saying about Pakistan and India.

Sorry just won't take me off my focus. 


Hopefully  this might be helpful to you all, so here:

#0000ff">The tragedy with Pakistan vis-à-vis Israel that began in 1947 is simply reaching its climax in the 21st century under General Musharraf. Zafrullah Khan was appointed by Jinnah himself. In October 1947, soon after the emergence of Pakistan, Jinnah warned that the partition of Palestine would entail “the gravest danger and unprecedented conflict and that the entire Muslim world will revolt against such a decision which can not be supported historically, politically and morally.” Soon afterwards, Pakistan proclaimed at the United Nations that all the Holy Land was being nailed and stretched on the cross. Surprisingly, all these words came from the mouths of those who were being held hostage by the Zionist influence.

#0000ff">Feroz Khan Noon recognized Israel ex gratia by declaring “Israel had come to stay” and Zafrullah Khan declared in 1952 that Israel must be regarded as “a limb in the body of the Middle East.”[15]

#0000ff">Before considering the background of these individuals, let us have a look at the argument that maybe they honestly believed this. Maybe they were right. After all, Jinnah pushed for the partition of India. Why was the same solution not also good in Palestine? The answer is that if these individuals honestly believed so, they were not supposed to say something totally different at the UN in favor of the suffering Palestinians. The world could have reached a solution if they were not saying one thing to the world and another to their Zionist friends.

#0000ff">Moreover, in the case of Pakistan, there were no claims laid over the land, nor were any competing claims of different religions over this land. Muslims were in a majority and already living in this part of the South Asia. The situation in Israel is totally different as a result of rejecting all that has been offered to it since its inception, including partition on the basis of equality.

#0000ff">As far their backgrounds, Feroz Khan Noon came from a typically feudal family, the kind of pillars on which the British colonialism had stood. Duly knighted along the way, he had served as high commissioner for (British) India in London (1936-41) and as member of Viceroy’s executive council (1941-45).

#0000ff">These serving members of the colonialists dominated affairs of nascent Pakistan and were considered loyal to its objectives. Sir Feroz, an empire loyalist with an Austrian Jewish wife, seemed to have become a Zionist by marriage. We may give Feroz Khan the benefit of the doubt by considering him a tolerant person, accepting of differences. But his committed service to colonialism exposes his real face. He was serving as high commissioner for India in London before the partition in 1936-41, when the colonial secretary, Lord Moyne, asked him to prepare a draft scheme for creating a Jewish state in Arab Palestine, but in a way that British imperialist do not get blamed for being anti-Arab or pro- Zionist. The can-do knight submitted his proposal to the secretary of state for India, Leopold Amery, who too happened to be Jewish. Noon proposed that they first create an Arabian federation, but also slip in an autonomous Jewish state within that federation. This Jewish entity should be a part of the treaty creating the federation.

#0000ff">The full-blown Jewish state would come into existence later, Sir Feroz explained, but the federation would provide the cover that they all needed so that no Muslim ruler could blame England for having created a Jewish state in Palestine or part of Palestine’. According to declassified papers from British Government (file No: F0372-275-E6190/53/65), Noon’s proposals were forwarded by Amery to Churchill on 10 September 1945.[16]

#0000ff">Zafrulla Khan also belonged to the heterodox Ahmadi group, created by the colonialists, which made Ahamdis loyal to the British empire by their “faith.” Zafrulla also served the colonists and in 1945 represented the British Indian government at a conference on Commonwealth Relations. He met the head of the Jewish Agency Chaim Weizmann, who organized his six-day visit to Palestine.

#0000ff">According to Tel Aviv University’s latest study, Weizmann (later president of the Zionist entity) told his men in Jerusalem to “see to it that (Zafrulla’s) stay in Palestine, and his contacts with our work, are made as interesting and as agreeable as possible.” And so it happened. Having allowed himself to be taken on a conducted tour by the Zionist Agency, it seems Zafrulla did undergo an “agreeable” change of mind. He wrote to Weizmann that he found the problem of Palestine “much more complicated than I had imagined, but let its hope that a just and equitable solution may soon be discovered.” Surely any decent person has to agree with such a sentiment. The question, however, is that being in a position to speak truth to power, what did he actually do to help the parties reach a “just and equitable solution.” He was just expressing regrets over his public stand on the issue.

#0000ff">Zafrulla did not indicate, though, what complications had since entered his mind, nor, what would make “a just and equitable solution.” He was economical with the truth. However, two years later after the UN had adopted the partition resolution (November 29, 1947), Israeli orientalist Uriel Heyd, who was also working for the Zionist intelligence in London, reported “noticeable changes in the position of Zafrulla Khan…During his talks in Damascus, Zafrulla Khan indicated that partition, which he [as Pakistan’s foreign minister had] vehemently opposed, was the only solution for Palestine. He even counseled the Arabs to allow the establishment of the Jewish state.” It was not a volte face, it was a double face.

#0000ff">The sad part of this saga is that Zafrulla Khan and Feroz Khan Noon were not the only individuals who deceived the nation and betrayed the Palestinians. What they were doing then, or Musharraf is doing now, cannot even be justified as using diplomacy in support of Palestinians. There were many others working on their respective projects, who remained unknown. The extent of the Zionist influence can be judged from the fact that in 1950 (May-June) Pakistan’s first Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan visited the United States and American leaders of trade and industry met him. At the meeting they promised all possible military and economic assistance if Pakistan recognized Israel. The American industrialists also underlined the importance of such a package for the new state of Pakistan. Liaqat Ali Khan in his known gentle tone replied: “Gentlemen! Our soul is not for sale.”[17]

#0000ff">Nevertheless, it is extremely surprising to know that Zafrulla had kept telling Israelis that Pakistan was about to recognize Israel. So when Abba Eban saw him in New York on January 14, 1953, as part of their continuing dialogue, Zafrulla “disclosed” to him that while the previous government of Liaqat Ali Khan favored the policy of recognizing Israel, the government now headed by Prime Minister Khawaja Nazimuddin (1894-1964) “‘had retreated from the favorable approach adopted by his predecessor.” This government “was weaker and more susceptible to public pressure from Muslim extremists.” He himself, Zafrulla told Abba Eban, “was attacked for his moderation.”[18] It shows Musharraf’s moderation is not a new mantra either.

#0000ff">These “founding” figures of Pakistan’s foreign services shaped the minds and ideology of a totally raw and unformed diplomatic service. The first batches of the Foreign Service were “trained” in Britain, Canada or the US; when they came back they very well knew how to serve the interests of the new imperial power against the interest of Pakistan. The vision and raison d’être of the nation was no more than a joke for them. At best, Islam remained a slogan to make everything acceptable to the masses.

#0000ff">Pakistan’s history is replete with hypocrites who provided full support to the views of Feroz Khan Noon and Zafrulla Khan. The prime minister, Husain Shaheed Suhrawardy and the president, Iskandar Mirza, fully agreed with Noon. Mirza, too, had started his career as a British Political Agent in the tribal districts of the North West Frontier. Later on, Ayub Khan, who followed Noon and Mirza, had to work with the same pro-Zionist and pro-imperialist policy tools.

#0000ff">Musharraf, too, is surrounded by personalities who are either known Ahmadis or have ties with those who are in charge of the modern day crusade. Pakistani hypocrites are not exposed to the nation. But outsiders know them very well.


Qadianis / Ahmadiyyah they all promote Jesus Christ lived & buried in India and other things, don't they?

The israelis enjoy attacking saudi arabia,  the dictatorship unfair and cowardly towards women and its poor  ....but why does it bother the neocons so? 

Actually, they love it, thrive on such information.

Zionists do not enjoy a secular, moderate society among Muslims. 

This moderate stuff is hogwash anyway.  Islam IS balance.  It is people who create imbalance.

Nonetheless, the zionist - neocon entity, bent on military rule, abhor educated Muslims, Muslims who live in peace and / or desire to live in peace.

Muslims and Arabs may have their problems within their own societies, but other nations should leave them alone, stay out of their business, and stop causing all the terror for millions of innocents that these foriegn agents started in the first place. 

But it has been clear to me for quite some time:  Muslims are a threat to the neocon entity.  Hence, let's turn them into islamists and suicide bombers.

All good Muslims say in unison:



I will read it tomorrow more thoroughly and check out the source.  Right now it is night night time.  Way past my bedtime.



fantatics are not religious they just think they are or they are just PAID to be fanatics for an agenda, they do not follow Islam, they do not know God or follow the right path.

I have no dispute with that, Rhiannon. As has been kindly pointed out by Peter Chamberlin (CIA Radicalization of Pakistan), we have a huge population that has been radicalized with the complicity of their government. Whether they are true Muslims or not is not for me to say. But they evidently think of themselves as true Muslims.

Besides Hoodbhoy, there are several other voices of sanity in Pakistan, who have expressed their distress over these developments. You may be bitterly opposed to them. But pause for a second. It is not people like them that were responsible for the Genocide of the Bangladeshis. They do not call on Pakistanis on national TV to hunt and shoot down Qadianis like dogs. You are just shooting the messenger who holds up a mirror for you to behold yourself.

kula, your links are a waste of time. I won't read your stuff.

Sigh ... there is none so blind as he who does not wish to see.

Muslims are a threat to the neocon entity. Hence, let's turn them into islamists and suicide bombers.

Rhiannon, you are turning yourself into a monster. Fortunately, very few people here will agree with you. Goodbye.

What absolute garbage,the indians have taken this phoney war on terror to heart,not suprising considering muslims are the scapegoats.

Yeah…I am a monster. That’s right kula. Thank you again for reminding me what you are all about and how your thinking processes work.
Let us look at the word “TERROR”
Every single day around the clock, demonizing of Islam and Muslims, the press and TV news heavily associates TERROR with:
Islam, see Zionist invented word - Islamists,
Jihad, see Zionist invented word – Jihadists - Islamists
Suicide bombers [islamists again]
Taliban [more suicide bombers]
Al aqaeda [more suicide bombers – islamist cells around the world! Moo ha ha ha]
Here is another TERROR list the media shoves at us 24/7
Palestinian Resistsance – Zionist invented word – terrorists
Palestinian Revolution – Zionist invented word – terrorists / suicide bombers
Hamas as freedom fighters – Zionist invented terrorist organization
Hezbollah / Freedom fighters
Resistance group – Zionist invented terrorist organization
Hezbollah – Hamas - Zionist definition: hide behind their civilians, use the children as human shields, force children to be suicide bombers
Why should Pakistan be any different from Palestine and Lebanon or Iraq?
Notice how mainstream journalism [Zionist media] does not consider aerial bombardment, armed actions done by Israeli and American military and other “special forces” as TERRORISM, nor are they considered TERRORISTS.
Oh….let’s not forget the Stern gang, Irgun and Haganah mass murderers and rapists, but they are hardly in the press. Exception: when tzipi livni was in the papers recently, she was known as the daughter of a “brave haganah freedom fighter”.
These are also not considered Terrorist items:
Collective punishments
Confessions by torture
And how about this one:
encounter murders done by mysterious special units in South Asian states. And how come we never hear about the Hindu Tamil Tiger suicide bombings? You need to stop fooling yourself, kula.
Thanks to deliberate distortion-making articles and books crafted by idols like your hoodbhoy, Western minds never associate wife beating, child abuse, rape, domestic terror, state terror to Buddhists, jews, Christians or hindus - - only Muslims.  What is wrong with that picture?


#0000ff">Yeah…I am a monster. That’s right ....

Artist: Yoko Ono
Album: Unknown
Title: Yes, I'm A Witch

Oh, please don't give me that!

Yes, i'm a witch,
I'm a bitch
I don't care what you say,
My voice is real.
My voice speaks truth,
I don't fit in your ways.

I'm not gonna die for you,
You might as well face the truth,
I'm gonna stick around for quite awhile.

We're gonna say,
We're gonna try,
We're gonna try it our way.
We've been repressed,
We've been depressed,
Suppression all the way.

We're not gonna die for you,
We're not seeking vengeance,
But we're not gonna kill ourselves for your convenience.

Each time we don't say what we wanna say, we're dying.
Each time we close our minds to how we feel, we're dying.
Each time we gotta do what we wanna do, we're living.
Each time we're open to what we see and hear, we're living.

We'll free you from the getthos of your minds,
We'll free you from your fears and binds,
We know you want things to stay as it is,
It's gonna change, baby.

It's gonna change, baby doll,
It's gonna change, honey ball,
It's gonna change, sugar cane,
It's gonna change, sweetie legs.
So don't try to make cock-pecked people out of us.


That - is - not - half - bad!

Not bad at all.  In fact pretty good.  I am so surprised.  Here is a song Yoko sings without screaming, yodeling, and making those weird short screeches.

It is actually a song!

wow....I like it.  And the lyrics are quite the anthem for today.  Just goes to show you how desperate our primitive world is in need of a huge change and has been in need of those changes for a very long time.

Thank ya, Musique!  Good stuff!

Yoko is an Aquarian by the way.  The sign of CHANGE.  Big changes.  It's also the sign of strange and unpredictable events.

Heh heh....yeah.  That is Yoko.


I couldn't believe myself when I saw the lyrics .....

So glad that you liked it. :)

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