Transcripts

Interview with Abd al-bari Atwan by Alan Hart.

Alan: Abd al-bari Atwan, welcome to the hart of the matter and thank you for making the time to be with us. I think perhaps a short first question about you. Now you are the only executive Arab editor in the whole Arab world, I know you are here in London, who is free to tell it like it is to speak his mind and I believe you have a strange combination of death threats and yet bribes to shut you up.

Abd al-Bari: Yes, it is. It is strange. You know, I am here in London simply because I want to speak my mind. I want to be free. I want to express our grievances. Definitely because of this attitude I am unwanted in the Arab world. They hate me; I am talking about the officials, because I am publishing everything. I am writing articles, calling for democracy, human rights, fight against corruption, so, it seems I am in our minefields. That is why I receive this death threats from the Arab governments.

Alan: So the death threats are from the governments, not from the Israelis or Mossad?

Abd al-Bari: It is from Arab Governments and also from klu klux clan which is an American Terrorist Organization killing black people in the States. Right wing Organization in Europe also sends me death threats. The Israelis, you know, think the same. They threaten me.

Alan: But you have also had bribes to shut you up.

Abd al-Bari: Yes, yes, Arab governments are expert in bribing journalists and they could not silence me, by death threats, so they came back with lucrative offers.

Alan: You’ve actually been offered a few millions to shut up.

Abd al-Bari: Oh yes, Alan it was very tempting, to be honest, because the amount of money was huge and we were struggling in this newspaper. I did not pay the salaries of my staff. So, I think they knew about it and they came at the right time. And they sat in your place here in my office and said, Abdul Bary, listen we know you are facing problems, what about £10.000.000? Honestly, 10,000.000 sterling pounds. And you know we do not want you to praise us. Just ignore us. Just not to write anything which is negative about us. We do not want any favor from you. This is the only favor. If you accept it, you will be in much better situation.

Alan: But you effectively told them politely to go to hell.

Abd al-Bari: I said to them thank you very much for your offer and I will think about it, and I am still thinking about it. You know, you cannot say I am not going to take it. You are bastard. I am not going to take this money. You are bribing me. No, you can not say that in the Arab World. I said to them, thank you very much, I appreciate that. I will think about it and we will be in touch and that is it.

Alan: OK Abdel that sets up really the first question I want to ask you. I think we can say that Zionism’s success to date is due only % 50 to its own efforts. To its unlimited funds, to its brilliant organization, to its ruthless playing of the obscenity of the Nazi holocaust. There is a blackmail card to silence criticism of Israel, but I think we can say that the other %50 of its success is due to the divisions and the impotence of the Arab regimes. I often say, with Arab regimes and elites as enemies Zionism have not needed friends. Will you please explain, as simply as you know how, the reason for this Arab impotence?

Abd al-Bari: It is not the Arab impotence, they are not impotent. They are, you know, very strong. They have a huge wealth, and they have very energetic people. They have people who are willing to die for their causes and they are dying for their causes in Palestine, In Iraq...

Alan: No, I am talking about the regimes Abd al-bari.

Abd al-Bari: The regimes here, it is corrupt regimes, dictatorships. It is dynasty of corruption. Those people they have money. They want to enjoy themselves and they are exploited by their interrupts. So, they are listening to the Zionist and they are scared of the Zionist, because they are scared of the United States which is supporting Zionist, but they are not impotent. Imagine, Arab countries are receiving now more than 600 billion dollars every year as our revenue. It is a huge wealth. It can change the whole world. But they do not want to use it. You know they want to use it for one thing which is, you know, to enjoy themselves. To have woman, to have boats, to have palaces, but not actually to fight Zionism, not actually to provide their people with essential services, with essential needs, that is why Israeli knows how to exploit it.

Alan: What I am calling impotent, you are actually saying is cowardess.

Abd al-Bari: Yes, they are cowards, they do not want to do anything, they are choosing the zero option, and you know just to stay as they are and to keep their people oppressed as long as they can.

Alan: All right, let’s just take the historical perspective. Despite rhetoric to the contrary, is not it the truth that the Arab regimes never ever intended to fight Israel to liberate Palestine? Is not that real truth? I mean because of the rhetoric, it played into Israelis’ hands to tell this lie we are about to be annihilated. But is not the truth is the Arab regimes never ever intended to fight to liberate Palestine?

Abd al-Bari: We cannot say the Arab regimes, in general, never wished to fight the Israelis or the Zionists. They are some exceptions. I believe late Jamal Abdul Nasser, president of Egypt, he was genuine in his attempt to fight the Israelis. But when he realized that his enemies are Arabs more than Israelis or Americans, he gave up in a way or another and he was humiliated. I think most of the Arab countries, most of the Arab regimes in particular. Yes, they did not have the urge to fight Zionism, and it was rhetoric and they were not serious, and they are not still serious and that is why Israeli actually celebrated its 60th birthday. If they are genuine Arab regimes who believe that the Zionist is a threat to the region, to their stability, even to their Jews themselves. I think Israel would not celebrate its 50th anniversary.

Alan: Abd al-bari, in the analysis of Khalid Al Hassan, who is now dead (God rest his soul) who was the leading intellectual on the right of the Palestine liberation movement, Fatah’ men, he said that he thought the main reason why Britain wanted to implant a Jewish colony in the Arab Heartland was because knowing what to do about it, would be such a big problem for the Arab regimes, it would keep them divided and that would enable Britain to impose its wheel on the region. Do you think that was a major strategic consideration in Western Imperialism’s thinking?

Abd al-Bari: Yes, I agree with late Khalid Al Hassan that when Britain and some countries implanted a Jewish state on the heart of the Arab world, they wanted to divide and rule, they wanted the Arab to be weakened, the Arab to be busy with this entity which is implanted and there has been there. And they wanted also to export the Jewish problems to the Arab themselves. Instead of actually making it, a western problem. They wanted to make it an Arab problem and they succeeded it and because of Israel now there is, you can see, a cut off between the North of the Arab world and the South of the Arab world. You can see Arabs are divided, you can see Americans also adopted the same British strategy. When the British Empire collapsed, the Americans jumped in and they are still using Israel in order to divide and weaken the Arab world and they are successful.

Alan: Khalid Hassan also said to me that the Arab regimes did not want to betray us, but they felt they had no choice. Do you think that is a fair comment?

Abd al-Bari: I think it is fair to say that the Arab regimes were actually very sympathetic to the Palestinians and the Palestinian cause. But the problem is, because they are cowards, because they are scared of the United States, because they do not want to fight, they want to enjoy themselves, just to, you know they have a huge wealth and they want to use it for their own personal advantages and for family advantages. So, they, you know, let down the Palestinians and also their own people. If you go to the Arab world, to the Arab masses, they still want to fight to liberate Palestine, but their governments are not allowing them to do so.

Alan: Is it not part of the truth of history that when the Palestine file was closed by Zionism’s first ‘fait accompli’ in 1948 - 1949 that actually the regime shared the same hope that Zionism in the Western powers that file would remain closed and could it not also be said that the reason why the regimes actually loathed Arafat, was because he came along and with others caused that file to be reopened. Is that a fair interpretation?

Abd al-Bari: It is a fair interpretation. Arafat was a genius. Arafat came out with the Palestinian liberation movement. He did not want the Palestinians to rely fully on Arabs to liberate Palestine. He realized that the Arab regimes are not genuine in their desire to liberate Palestine. They do not want actually to go into that path. So he decided to break the norms by establishing National Palestinian movement "Fatah" and he actually managed to open the files and to make it Palestinian file, not an Arab file.

Alan: And that is why, basically, the regime actually loathed him.

Abd al-Bari: Yes, the regime hated him because he was charismatic. He (Arafat) had a vision. He knew that it was only the Palestinians who had to fight Israelis.

Alan: And he personally symbolized the whole spirit of the Palestinians’ wish for justice, indeed. In his own presence and his emotions, he was a symbol.

Abd al-Bari: He was a symbol and he is still continuing to be a symbol even after his death, after his martyrdom. Arafat was clever. He succeeded in a very important dimension. He created the Palestinian identity and he kept this identity alive until now. So the Arabs wanted to kill this Palestinian identity and Arafat actually failed them here.

Alan: Well that leads me to say to round off this section. Could we not say in sort of coming to a conclusion here that if they (the Arab regimes) have had their way, the Palestinians would have accepted their lot as a sacrificial lamb on the altar of political expediency? Is not that fair to say that?

Abd al-Bari: Yes. This is a very fair description. They want the Palestinians to be the sacrificial lamb and but the Palestinian actually realized that, and they started to take struggle by their own hands and that is why they kept their cause alive and that is why Zionist dream is not fully accomplished.

Alan: Abd al-bari, a question now about how the course of history might have been changed. Supposing after the 1967 war, Arab leaders have been united, sent one of their numbers secretly to Washington and said to the president behind closed doors, if you do not get Israel back to the 67 borders, in exchange for peace with all of us, we will turn off the oil taps. What do you think might have happened?

Abd al-Bari: My God, what a fantastic idea, if they did that, I think they would change the course of history. I think the Americans and the West in that time who were desperate for oil would realize that they were Arab regime. They are Arab well. They are people who are deciding their own future. Saying to Americans, look we are 22 countries. We got the oil. We got your life line, so, either us or them.

Alan: You see Abd el-bari I do not think they would have turned off the taps. It happened to be in President Johnson, but it could have been any president. I think if the president had believed they were serious and united, he would have said: I can not promise quick action on Jerusalem but give me a few days and I will do it. That is my view.

Abd al-Bari: I think he would do that because he would not take a decision immediately. There is such a strategic resolution. It is not going to be taken in the heat of the moment. He will go and consult and he will come back with his answer.

Alan: But it could have resulted in a change of policy you think?

Abd al-Bari: Oh yes definitely. But we have to remember king Faisal of the Saudi Arabia shut down the oil flow to the West after the 1973 war. What happened? He was assassinated. He was assassinated by one of his nephews.

Alan: Yes, but that nephew was set up in America. I think he was assassinated for many things he done. I think Kissinger and others knew that he was going to try to unite the Arabs to use the oil weapon seriously. But just coming back to what we have been saying about, the Arabs could have played that card. I know for certain, because I spoke with many Israeli leaders about it, if the boot had been on the other foot, if the Zionists had been the Arabs, they would have played that card and what that tells me is the biggest difference between Zionist leaders and Arab leaders. Zionists have always known how to play the cards they have got, Arab leaders never have.

Abd al-Bari: Yes, because Zionists were groomed by the West, grow up by the very educated societies, they know how to use their card to the maximum, but if you look at the Arab rulers most of them are illiterate literally and they are backward and they are cowards, they are very few exceptions and they want to please the West. That is the problem. You do not have a true Arab leader who actually can use the Arab cards, the oil card in particular, to the benefit of the Arab people.

Alan: I was going to ask you Abd el-bari, what is coming back from 1967 to now, If only they (the Arab leaders) could unite what cards do they have now and could they play and how to play them to change American policy?

Abd al-Bari: Actually, they have huge important cards. The first card is oil. The second card is wealth. The third card is a huge market. The fourth card is security. The Fifth card is terrorism. So, they have a plenty of cards, but they do not know how or they do not want to use it. Look at those two major Arab countries for example. Look at Egypt and look at Saudi Arabia. The ruler of Egypt is 80 years of age and he does not want to do anything.

Alan: I would say he was a complete American stooge

Abd al-Bari: And he is a complete American stooge. And then if you look at Saudi Arabia, the ruler of Saudi Arabia is 86 years of age and he actually is semi illiterate, so how can those people challenge the Zionist project? How they can challenge the Israelis? How can they use the Arab effective cards to the Arab ends? It is absolutely disgrace. I feel disgraced as Arab. Look now, everybody is talking about oil, who got the oil? Who got the reserves? The Arabs and they are not doing it. They are not saying to Americans we can hurt you. For example when President Bush visited Saudi Arabia, he asked for more oil to be pumped and they agreed without anything in return. If they said to the American President, look you want us to increase our production, we are willing to do so, but we need pressure on Israelis to stop settlements in the west bank.

Alan: You just used a wonderful phrase, “without anything in return”. You see whenever the Israelis are asked to do something, they always say yes, but we have a price. We will do that and you will do that. That is one thing Arafat always used to say to me “I can not understand why that is the way the Jews play, not just the Zionist. Arab leaders just do not seem to understand.

Abd al-Bari: The problem with the Arab leaders, you know, they do not understand the Western mentality, and even if they do understand, they do not want to exploit to our own causes, to serve our causes. I will tell you something: In 1991 they fought with Americans to evict Saddam Hussein from Kuwait. What they got in return? Nothing. In 2001 after 11th of September they fought the war against Terrorism with the Americans and they helped The Americans a lot to fight Al Qaeda and to topple Taliban in Afghanistan. What they have got in return? Nothing

Alan: Because they asked for nothing,

Abd al-Bari: Yes, they asked for nothing and they got nothing. Again, they helped the Americans to topple Saddam Hussein and to facilitate the occupation of Iraq. What they have got after that? Nothing, but you know now Iraq is completely dismembered and there is anarchy and this anarchy started to actually reflect badly on the Arab world and you have Al Qaeda there. You have radical organizations there. So, this is the problem with those Arab regimes. They do not ask for any returns. They do all these services to the Americans and to the West free of charge.

Alan: Arafat once said to me that the Palestinian cause could never be destroyed, despite the regimes, because it was alive in the hearts and minds of the Arab masses. Is that still the case today?

Abd al-Bari: The only unifying factor in the Arab world and the Muslim world is the Palestinian cause. If you go to the Arab world from Moratania to the Gulf, you will find most of people agreeing on one thing that Palestine is a just cause and they are willing to sacrifice to actually bring justice to the Palestine. Even in the Muslim worlds, if you go to Indonesia, if you go to Malaysia, Nigeria, the only factor, the only country, you know, the only cause which actually brings people on the streets, demonstrating, is the Palestinian cause. So, I believe Arafat was right, the Palestinian cause will continue to be live in the hearts and the minds of all Muslims and the Arabs.

Alan: But Abd el-bari, that then brings a very big question. In my book, “Zionism the real enemy of the Jews”, I described the Arab street as an explosion of humiliation and anger waiting for its time to happen and the cause of the humiliation is not only Israel’s behavior but the failure of the Arab regimes to do anything to check Israel. So the logical question would be this: Do you see a time coming? When the Arab masses will become so fed up with being humiliated and they will rise up and topple these regimes?

Abd al-Bari: I think the days of the Arab regimes are numbered, because the Arab people realized that they could not be cheated anymore. The Arab regimes used to oppress and suppress their own people under the pretext of Palestine. After these peace treaties with Israelis secrets and public talks with the Israelis, the Arab masses realized that these regimes were corrupt and they were useless and they had to move against them.

Alan: Why has not it happened yet?

Abd al-Bari: It has not happened yet, because of the amount of the pressure and suppression imposed in these regimes, in the masses of the Arab people, because the western world is actually helping these regimes to continue and to be stronger in their operation. If you remember they talked about democracy which immediately evaporated simply because the Americans wanted these corrupt regimes for the world wars in the Middle East so now they pretend they wanted these regimes for the stability of the Middle East not actually for the sake of the people there. They sacrificed the interests of the people, I mean general interests like democracy and human rights for the sake of the Western interests. Now there is some sort of awakening on the Arab world, and, at the same time, a movement to suppress these awakenings by controlling the Arab media, by controlling the western media. It is very clear, for example, why BBC is launching an Arabic Television service for example? Why Americans are launching Al Harrah which is Arabic service television? Why the Germans have one? Why the Russians have one? Why they are fighting to deceive and change the Arab mentalities and Arab masses, the future Arab masses, because they knew that, there is a movement in the streets to reject these regimes, to revolt against it. They want to suppress it by different means including the media itself.

Alan: Abd el-bari, what about the regimes themselves? If there becomes clear evidence of a gathering real revolution in the making, Are they smart enough to change course to survive, even if that would mean them becoming not anti American, but not doing Americans biding, and being more serious about challenging Israel, are they serious enough, smart enough to do that or would they just go for more brutal repression?

Abd al-Bari: I do not believe the Arab regimes want the change or the reforms, simply because it is too late for them. You know the whole regimes are corrupt. If a regime is there for 30 years like the regime in Egypt for example, you can not change the regime simply because there is a huge class, a huge entourage of corruption and corrupted people around these regimes. So if they want to reform for example if they want to have independent judicial system, the first thing they will do, you know, you have to try those people, corrupt people. You have to ask them: how you made your money? If they want to have human rights for example, the first thing they will say: you oppressed us and we want to open the files of torture. If they want to give them election, democracy, real democracy, elected parliament, the first thing the parliament will do, they will bring those ministers and actually to cross-examine them.

Alan: Abd el-bari, what is it you are saying? That you can not change them, because of all this corruption on the system, you can not change the regime’s period or you can only change it by grass roots, violent revolution from the bottom up?

Abd al-Bari: I think gradual reforms are impossible. I think the only change can be occurred by masses revolt. The way it happened in Georgia, the way it happened in Philippines, the way it happened in different parts of the world, because it is too corrupt to be reformed.

Alan: But hand on your heart, do you really believe that will happen or is that just Abdol Barry, the passionate Palestinian nationalist, wishfully thinking?

Abd al-Bari: I admit it is my wishful thinking but also, at the same time, I can see some signs of revolt in the Arab world. I can see people are really worried and they start to express their dissatisfaction in different means. Now you can not control the media, the way they used to control. Now you have the internet. You have the revolution of communications. Now you have the blogs there, so people start to move, start to make the technology, communication technology to their own advantages and challenging the regime for that and it is gathering pace. I can see in Egypt for example the face book managed to create a revolution in Egypt, demonstrations in Egypt. It never happened before. So there are signs, but I am not the fortune teller, I can not tell when the masses will go into the streets and asking for changes.

Alan: Abd el-bari, Arafat was not a fortune teller either, but he did once tell me what his greatest real fear was and he said it was that Syria would in return to getting the Golan heights back, make its own separate peace with Israel, then Syria, Jordan and Egypt would collude to force the Palestinians to accept what ever crumbs Israel would give them and that was Arafat’s greatest fear and if it happened, it would have, of course, been the greatest betrayal. Do you think there is a possibility of that happening?

Abd al-Bari: I think the fears of Arafat were justified, but we have something to prove. Something completely different, for example, look at Egypt. After 30 years of signing a peace deal with the Israelis, the Egyptian people still believe that Israel is actually occupying Arab territories and Israel is unjust for the Palestinians and it should not be there. Just a week ago that Egyptian culture minister he was actually flogged by people simply because he said he was willing to visit Israel. So, even if Syria signs a peace treaty with Israel, I do not believe the Israeli will impose their will on the Palestinians, I do not believe so. Jordan did it, Egypt did it, but you look the Palestinian cause is more alive than it used to be before these treaties. Now you can see after Arafat signing Oslo treaty, what happened? Arafat capitulated, Hamas emerged, Al Jihad emerged and they are firing rockets and they are nearly heating Tel Aviv. Ashkelon is just about 10-15 kilo-meters from Tel Aviv. You can see the revolution, you can see the resistance. It is far greater than it used to be 10 or 15 years ago.

Alan: What you can also say surely is that continuing proof of how counter- productive Israel’s policy is. I mean in my view, Hamas would not have emerged probably at all, it would certainly not have become a significant force if Israel had been prepared to do business with Arafat on the basis of a genuine two-state solution. Is not that right? Israel is the God father of Hamas.

Abd al-Bari: Allen, Arafat was a genius and he genuinely wanted peace, but he was frustrated and humiliated. The Israeli got the greatest chance of their history to actually make peace with the Palestinians. Arafat was the only Palestinian leader who can sell the peace deal to his own people. But the Israelis wasted this opportunity and they would regret that, because what was after Arafat was more radical organization. Not only Hamas, you have Al Jihad, you have popular resistance committees, you have more radicalized Palestinians than they used to be under Arafat.

Alan: Abdel Bari, Arafat once said to me, if the Israelis can not make peace with me, they will never have peace.

Abd al-Bari: Arafat was absolutely correct, because he was the only Palestinian leader who got the credit and the support to sign a peace deal with the Israelis.

Alan: On the basis of the Palestinians only having %22 of their land back, I mean, the unthinkable compromise,

Abd al-Bari: Exactly, he was well trusted by the Palestinians. He was well loved by the Palestinian people. The problem is not to sign a peace deal. The most difficult thing is how to sell this peace deal to your own people. Nobody after Arafat can convince the Palestinian people that this peace deal is good for them.

Alan: Because they have got nothing from it,

Abd al-Bari: Exactly, that is what the Israeli did not understand and that is what Robin did understand. That is why he was killed, because he realized that this conflict can not be solved by military means. It can be solved by peace deals and by talking to the Palestinians, by giving them something and he actually sees the opportunity when Oslo agreement was signed. He realized that Arafat got the potential to make peace with the Israelis and to convince the Palestinian people that is the right thing for them and what happened? He was assassinated by the ultra Zionist radicals

Alan: Absolutely, Abd el-bari if there is no resolution of the Palestine problem on terms of the vast majority of the Palestinians, most Arabs and Muslims every where could accept. Do you think that the combination of Western support for Israel, right or wrong, plus the radicalization of the Arab and the Muslim world could make a clash of civilizations, Jew, Christian or Islamic, really possible?

Abd al-Bari: Yes. It is possible. I think, you know the west by supporting the Israelis and trying to impose them on the Muslim world, they are making the clash of civilizations nearer and nearer. Simply because the Arab and the Muslim would not accept this injustice inflected on the Palestinian people, but again I have started to feel that the west has started to realize the burden of the Israelis on their shoulders.

Alan: You mean support for Israel right or wrong?

Abd al-Bari: Yes. Support for Israel, right or wrong, has started to cause huge problems to the west itself.

Alan: Do you think that is being questioned in the west?

Abd al-Bari: Yes. It is now. If you look at the situation, you know, the west is fully dependent on the Middle Eastern oil and because of the tension created by the Israeli occupation by the Israeli provocations of the Muslim world building settlements committing massacres now it has started to reflect badly on the west, security wise and economic wise.

Alan: America is hated almost throughout the world.

Abd al-Bari: Exactly, exactly, OK you are supporting this, but now who created Osama Bin Laden? Who created radicalism? Who created Islamic fundamentalism? Why Al Qaeda is increasing and not decreasing? Why they are opening branches everywhere in the world now? Because of the western support to the Israelis.

Alan: Well it, 2 things, I would suggest you, is not just that. It is Western foreign policy in general, but in particular it is support for the Zionist state of Israel right or wrong that is the cause of the radicalization. So we can say, can we not, that president Bush with Blair with the best are recruiting sergeants for militant violent Islamic fundamentalism. Yes?

Abd al-Bari: Yes, Osama Bin Laden told me that. You know when I interviewed him in Tora Bora in November 1996; he told me that we need leaders like Blair and Bush.

Alan: You mean he could not believe his luck that the west was led by such stupid men.

Abd al-Bari: Yes, he said we need this American foreign policy, unjust American foreign policy in order to mobilize people against the west and he succeeded. You know in October 2001, when the American bombed Tora Bora and Afghanistan, the sympathy with Al Qaeda was very limited and I believe they managed to neutralize Al Qaeda and Taliban and there was a huge sympathy in the Arab and the Muslim worlds for the victim of the world trade centre, but what happened? Because of the stupidity of Tony Blair and President Bush and the invasion of Iraq, Al Qaeda was rejuvenated and was recreated again and re-strengthened by this unjust and stupid foreign policy and you can see there is Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia, Al Qaeda in Iraq, Al Qaeda re-grouping again in Afghanistan, Al Qaeda in North Africa, Al Qaeda in Europe, Al Qaeda in Somalia, Al Qaeda soon in Lebanon, so it is now every where, because of this stupid foreign policies and again because of the strong support of the Israeli, right or wrong. You know London streets were bombed. Madrid train station was bombed. So that is the problem. When I said you know the West started to feel, at least the western masses, I am not talking about the governments, I am talking about the masses now who I meet on universities when I give lectures, or in the streets when they are walking and they want to have a chat with me. They started to feel that. You know this Israel is a huge burden and they can not carry it any more. So either this could be the turning point in the history of the Zionist movement, but the problem is as you mentioned rightly in the beginning of this program we do not have Arab regimes to capitalize in this.

Alan: Abd el-bari, there is a case for saying that if the Zionist state of Israel was going to be a permanent feature forever in the Arab heart land, the Palestine file had to be closed and kept closed. Now, the why is very simple? From Zionism’s perspective, if it was ever reopened and the truth about how Israel was created came about Zionist terrorism and ethnic cleansing that would put great pressure on public opinion and would mobilize the conscience of the whole world to finally say to Israel, enough is enough. It has got to be justice for the Palestinians. Now that is a very positive sign. When you said to me earlier you see signs of that happening, could we not conclude by saying: it is precisely because the Palestine file has been reopened, that Zionism’s day, the days of the Zionist state may be limited?

Abd al-Bari: I think there is a state of awakening, not only among the Arab masses, but also among the international masses, among European people. Three years ago there was a survey by European Union and in this survey %60 of Europeans believe that Israeli is a threat to stability of the world and the second came United States. So this is a very progressive sign. It means people start to think differently. When I say differently, they can not buy, or they do not want to buy the governmental propagandas. Other points, about two years ago, I was invited to give talks to Hamburg university and I met those young Germans and I was surprised when one of them who was doing her PhD told me that the Germans they do not have their guilt feelings toward the Jews as they used to be. They are not actually in love with the Americans as their parents are. So you have a new generation of Europeans who do not have this guilt feeling and they can see the amount of injustice inflected on the Palestinians by the Jews, by the Israelis, by the Zionist I mean. So, that is the turning point here. So I think you are absolutely right Allen here, you know, as the Israeli, the Zionist, they want to close the Palestinian chapter or the Palestinian file for their…

Alan: Well they cannot do that.

Abd al-Bari: No, they failed and the revolution of communications now, the access to the information which is becoming easier and easier prevented them from keeping this file closed forever. It is like an open wound. They cannot actually sew it. They can not treat it. It is open until there is justice for the Palestinians.

Alan: But you are agreeing with me that for the Zionist state to be a permanent fixture, it simply had to keep that file closed.

Abd al-Bari: The Israelis are extremely worried now. Why they are worried? Because they realized that the Palestinians are there and they are really demanding more. They do not believe the two-state solution is acceptable to many of the Palestinians anymore.

Alan: Yes but more than that Abdul Bari why I think you say Zionism is very well. I think it is. I mean a whole lot of us now are working on the truth of history, I mean that happens to me, with my book, Ilan Pappe, Carter …………there is a whole parade, now, of books giving the truth of history. You and I have just had a logical conversation. We have been effectively said, yes Zionism is vulnerable, the truth of history is may work to mobilize the conscious of the peoples of nations to press for justice for the Palestinians, but there is a flaw to this logic Abd al-bari, it just could be that even if the world conscious is brought to bear and government state of Israel enough is enough, there must be justice, it is not impossible that Zionism will say to the whole world go to hell. Nuclear armed Zionism could simply say go to hell.

Abd al-Bari: The Israeli have no other choice, but to live in the region with Arabs to co-exist with them and they have to adapt. They have to change. The nuclear weapons did not save the white regime, the racist regime in South Africa. They used to have more power than the Israelis, than the Zionist themselves. But in the end they have to capitulate. In the end they have to say that we can not live anymore with this power, relying on this power. So the Israeli will face the same fate. They will realize that they have to live with the Palestinian on one state. Two-state solution is not working anymore and nuclear weapon would not protect them. Russia used to have 30,000 nuclear warheads. The Soviet Union collapsed, simply in the end, you know, the nuclear warheads did not prevent the collapse of the Soviet empire.

Alan: But Abd al-bari I am not saying that the Israelis are looking upon their nuclear weapons as defense. On the first page of my book, I quote Golda Meir when she was prime minister in the Panorama interview with me and there was a moment when I had to say to her: Prime Minister, I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You are saying if ever Israel was in danger of defeat or disappearing, it would be prepared to take the region and the whole world down with it. Without a pause Abdul Bari, she said: Yes that is exactly what I mean. That night the Times of London, then a good newspaper, not owned by Murdoch but a good newspaper, changed its editorial to quote what Golda Meir said to me and said we better believe it. So my point is that if Zionism, gut Zionism concludes that it is all over. It may not agree to it being put out of business. It may say, if we have had it, the regions had it and it may just go for the Masada option.

Abd al-Bari: Masada option would be devastating for them first, simply because this would be the end of 6,000,000 Jews. So if they are going to sacrifice 6,000,000 Jews, simply because they want Zionism to continue or not to be defeated? This is a crime against Jews, against humanity. Why shall we loose 6,000,000 Jews for example? Why they are very energetic people, they are very creative. You know they could be helpful for humanity. So this is the type of Nazism, to be honest, to sacrifice your own people, simply because you do not want to be defeated, to avoid defeat. What kind of mentality is this? I think the alternative is, ok Zionism did not work or, actually, is not going to work anymore. Let us co-exist, let us live in peace with those people. The way we lived for years for centuries, we lived together in Spain, we lived together in Iraq, we lived together in Egypt, we lived together in Morocco, North Africa, OK, let us change our strategy and, you know, live with them and the Arabs are welcoming that . If the Jews want to be Jewish not Zionist they are welcomed. In one stage in Iraq, they used to be about four Jewish cabinet Ministers. So the same thing can be repeated. Why shall we sacrifice them and kill millions of people in the Israeli side, or Zionist side, Jewish side and the Arab side. This is a very sick mentality, to be honest.

Alan: Well it is sick and my only concern for the future is that I think Zionism may well be beyond reason.

Abd al-Bari: They are beyond the reason and they are endangering the Jewish communities and you have written in your book, the greatest danger to the Jews are the Zionists because actually they are creating more problems to the Jews than it used to be. Look at the Jews in the United States, they are very prosperous, they are living happily. Look at them in Europe, look at them every where, but who are the most miserable Jews? Those people who believed the dream of Zionism. Those people who are living in Israel, because they do not know what the future will bring to them. You know the Jews in Golders green, in Finchley, they are not worried about the future of their children, but the Jews in Israel are worried about the future of their children. They do not know what the future will bring to them and that is what Zionists did to the Jews. That is the most dangerous thing. I am surprised those Jews in Israel do not think about that. They do not compare themselves with their compatriots, for example, in United States or Europe. You know they do not need in Europe. They do not need to go and fight wars. They do not need to live under the rockets of Hamas or others. They are not scared of suicide bomber attacking them. They can send their children to school in peace, but their brothers, or in Palestine, in Israel, they can not do that. So, you can see by your eyes. They are endangering the Jews’ life. They are not actually making it safer. That is the point which definitely one day, the Israeli and the Jews will think about it. Say why we are here? For how long? We will sleep under our pillows as a pistol or a Klashnekoff or a gun, something like that. Why shall we be always under threat? Why shall we live in worry all our life? We can not make peace and we can not actually continue with these military means. So one day they have to face this question and if they decided to say look it did not work. We want to co-exist. We want to share it with those people. We want to put an end to wars, to killings, to sanctions, to starvations, to walls. Look what the Zionist did to the Israelis? They have 300 kilo-meters wall with Egypt now they are building. They have a wall in the West Bank to separate them from the Palestinian and they have electronic wall with Lebanon. How can people live behind walls like this? What kind of life is this? Imagine that walls, walls, walls, in the time we are talking about globalism, we are talking about multiculturalism, we are talking about co-existence. You are absolutely right Allen, when you said most dangerous thing to the Jewish people is Zionism and that is the fact now. I hope they understand that.

Alan: Abd al-Bari I cannot let you go without a yes or no answer to this question. Among other things you are possibly the world’s leading expert on the subject of Osama Bin Laden. I want a yes or no answer. Is he dead or alive?

Abd al-Bari: He is alive and he is kicking and he is in good health and President Bush would not or there is a very slim chance to capture him and kill him before the end of his presidency and Osama Bin Laden has continued to be alive until now, he is proving that the war against terrorism which cost us at least $800 billion dollars until now is un-winnable war and Osama Bin Laden is not defeated and is not winning, but definitely, definitely President Bush also is not winning.

Alan: Abd el-Bari, thank you very much indeed for your time.

Abd al-Bari: Thank you

Submitted by The Great Revealer on Tue, 2008-11-04 04:26

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